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Talk:Desperate Times
Pheromone use Of course how much control is the question. Pheromones chemicals send simple signals, so it would not be something like a command to attack Atlas. Giving an 'attack' order might have Splicers attack anyone they see (including each other). It would be useful enough just to make Splicers calm (non-agressive) instead of continuing tearing up Rapture and disrupting whats left of the economy. That would allow Ryan to deprive Atlas of most of his mutant army and leave him vulnerable when Atlas was finally tracked down and cornered. (that appeared to be the situation when we show up as Jack) People who didnt use any Plasmids (or use any further) wouldnt be affected. You might also consider that people who abused ADAM probably had already given up alot of their free will (thru the addiction and more the insanity - it was what made them so easy for Atlas to manipulate them) . After Atlas was dealt with, keeping the Splicers calm/cooperative would be very useful to stabalize the City enough to get basic neccessities under production. Ryan then could put his Labs to work on a Cure or research to eliminate ADAMs bad sideeffects. With those possibilities, it makes Ryans 'suicide' very illogical. Testxyz (talk) 13:32, December 9, 2013 (UTC) :Late reply, but I just stumble on this comment and find it interesting to debate. :I agree on that point too, pheromone is not mind control like Jack, the Big Daddies and the Little Sisters. It can still help to calm Splicers or, on the contrary, enrage them (which makes me wonder if the Enrage/Hypnotize Big Daddy/Hypnotize Plasmids are based on pheromones too). It affects general behavior more than actions. :I don't think Ryan's suicide was based only on the state of his population. He was cornered into submission by his enemy and everything he despised. He was affected by the fact that his city and his own ideology allowed the creation of a "slave" like Jack and that it was turned against him. Also seeing everything he achieved fall step by step, that his efforts to avert this outcome were vain, this precipitated his suicide. Still if Jack never came to Rapture, I can easily imagine Ryan stabilizing the city the way you suggest it. Pauolo (talk) 14:49, April 26, 2015 (UTC) ::Here's some food for thought, we're describing pheremones the way we understand them, but what if they don't actually work that way in Rapture? It was mentioned in the Hacking Talk Page that what passes for "hacking" in Rapture is not the same as in the real world, so what if the same is true for our favorite underwater dystopia? ::Just as how genetic wonder potions were created from new mutated species of Sea Slug found at the bottom of the sea, what if new scientific advancements had concocted special airborn chemicals that effectively controlled complex behavior and were simply nicknamed "pheremones?" I'm not saying this is the answer (certainly not anything that should be broughrt up on the main page), just that the greatest collection of scientific minds might come up with some impressive inventions. ::Unownshipper (talk) 01:20, April 28, 2015 (UTC) :::We have an example of pheromones at the end of the game, and it's basically a smell that draws Little Sisters like "bees to honey," so I don't think it's much different from the real stuff. It would be confusing to have too different things called the same in the game. Yet the Plasmids' structure was changed to ease mental suggestion so it's not just pheromones, so yes ADAM had its part in it. Pauolo (talk) 17:30, April 28, 2015 (UTC) ::Wasn't it Atlas who was (nearly) cornered at the point Jack arrives? Without the Splicers to fight (now 'controlled' by Ryan) and remaining normals probably outclassed by Ryan's Splicers and Security men, Atlas was doomed and facing almost immediate defeat (maybe thats why Fontaine at this point was playing his 'ace in the hole'... (What did he call his Mr Atlas BodyBuilding ADAM Binge ? His "Royal Flush up his Sleeve"?). It wasn't Ryan's philosophy that created Jack (evil people like Fontaine will use anything as a weapon), and as with all societies, it is upto the majority to defeat the 'evil' people'. Ordinary people were out of their minds/disrupted by something that was unexpectedly created. Was the competitiveness of Ryan's philosophy at fault? OR the ruthlessness of people who DIDNT believe it (who didnt believe in individuals driving improvement, who just wanted to TAKE rather than GIVE) that were given an overwhelming weapon? So Ryan had tunred that weaopon back upon them. ::Jack was a weapon who had no free will (a significant part of Ryans philosophy) -- made that way (just as the 'Surface' people made people into parasites/slaves) - something Ryan could fix (and he probably could see to Jack being freed -- if anything to prove a point). ::Ryan was on the point of 'winning' against Atlas, and would THEN seek to repair the damage done to Rapture (whatever the pheromone 'control' was, it could be eliminated, as Ryan had previously eliminated the elements from the Surface world). Why would Ryan abandon something he had based his life doing. :: 10:36, April 28, 2015 (UTC) :::I didn't mean Ryan's philosophy created Jack, just that it allowed it (science without morality). You're right on the rest though. Perhaps knowing that people stopped believing in his dream was what set his suicide into motion. What good would it be to win if no one would listen unless being forced to? In fact Ryan almost sounds like a fanatic throughout Hephaestus, and not the way he does in the previous levels. He sounds like he is trying to convince himself of the righteousness of his philosophy and not Jack/the player. I've replayed recently that level and paid attention to all his radio messages, and when finally confronting him, I felt a great sadness in the scene. There's also the possibility that he himself felt too old (he was around his 60) to live through Rapture's revival, or even help it, and that he passed his philosophy onto Jack as well as Rapture's genetic key (and control) as his legacy for the boy to save Rapture himself. And that resonates with Fontaine's taunts at the end of the game, stating that there was nothing to save in Rapture. Still I'm not trying to convince you of anything here, just speaking my mind up. :) Pauolo (talk) 17:30, April 28, 2015 (UTC) ::I suppose you could have the pheromone thing be something more complex. Calming the population (just to do normal things) would get Ryan what he needed (how much resources/time would Ryan have for developing anything more complex if that was sufficient?) Individual people are too different to control in more than a basic/general way only using universally deployed chemicals - if the city was to live the population COULDN'T be disabled by it, or everything keeping them all alive would stop. Individualized/customized 'dosage' would be difficult to create and implement and it takes time/effort to 'brainwash' control people sufficiently, without it completely backfiring. The 'things are normal' announcements we heard werent "mindcontrolly" enough sounding to be more than generally directed behavior reinforcement on the population (Splicers AND remaining normal people). ::If people were robotized by the chemicals they would all have to be individually directed. A state where people were simply psychologically influenceable wouldnt work, as Atlas could still order his 'troops' to fight for him. Perhaps Ryan could neutralize the Splicers and use his remaining unmodified citizens (that poster calling for people to report...) and/or 'adjusted' order-following Splicers (countering the general sedative effect in a way Atlas couldnt). ::We did see Ryan aim citizens (they didn't seem like security men) at Jack, perhaps employing some 'destroy the outsider' type of instinct-like response, along with the 'Bounty' bribe (why he hadnt used THAT to quickly destroy Atlas is another mystery). Similarly the 'paid' in ADAM motivation seems to have been used (Brenda and Charlie) which implies the population wasnt mind-numbed by whatever Pheromone Control was in place and basic motivations could also be employed. ::How generally it all (Pheromone Control) was used, by locality or by duration, is vague. The 'solution' likely made ADAM-using people susceptable to control chemicals, which could be applied specificly in needed areas and lessened in others, or different chemicals employed could cause different basic responses. ::Altas might prevent/impair some such chemical deployment, but the air had to come from somewhere else and certainly he couldn't do it effectively in areas he didn't control (and Ryan could keep gaining ground on him --- his men just chucking in some calming control "Play Nice" grenades). :: 11:25, April 28, 2015 (UTC) :::It's funny, it actually reminds me of the plot of a science-fiction movie where on a terraformed planet, pheromones (or something similar) were pumped out in the air to appease the settlers. It worked so much (too strong dosage?) that they stopped doing anything and died of starvation. However it had the opposite effect on some individuals who started behaving violently in reaction to the pheromones. :::Anyway, I think you're right on your description of how mental suggestion would work and pheromones be spread in the right areas. Btw since you bring in Atlas, remember Fontaine had an illegal (can't define that though) Plasmid lab in Siren Alley. Making their own Plasmids instead of injecting Ryan's would prevent Atlas's men from turning against him due to pheromones. It's even possible Ryan applied pheromones early in the war, and they never affected Atlas's men because they made their own Plasmids out of the ADAM collected from harvesting Little Sisters. :::Btw a parenthesis related to your theory on spreading pheromones: it makes me wonder if the idea of pheromones originated from the first gameplay concepts of BioShock. You were to be able to change the environment for easier fights against enemy types through specific machines (pressure, humidity, temperature). Imagine a unique machine (and they made a model for a pressure regulation one) in each level which could reduce enemies' hostility, it could have made an interesting gameplay addition even though it would make the game easier. Pauolo (talk) 17:30, April 28, 2015 (UTC) :::Fontaine may have resisted for a while as his stocks of ADAM held out (and any LS he may have had hidden). Eventually he would run out, and then things would go downhill fast with his Splicers becoming unstable. Later we hear his follower on a RAID killing a BD and then the LS when Fontaine would be needing LS for the ADAM they produced (and he was possibly at that point losing control of his addicted followers and Ryan gaining more ability to bribe them) - again possibly precipitating his 'ace in the hole' plan). :::The original pressure concept might have worked in a few situations, but would be a loophole after a while (use the machine/fix the machine.. just another fetch the key type scenario), though I remember the talk about different pressures allowed greatly varying sound/visual environmental effects. :::We could have had at least one area in the BS1 game where the pheromone control was made obvious (locking down Arcadia and spraying pheromones to have the locals attack Jack - instead of the illogical 'now you're going to run out of air, bwahahahah ', which would take weeks, (but then that was a blatant painting of 'ruthless'/'mad' Ryan who's now gonna destroy ALL of Rapture's air to GET Jack, etc...) :::That lab in SIrens Alley was pretty crude (coulda been trashed in BS1 interim maybe?). BUT We dont get details about whats involved in production, how/what components are added to refined ADAM (genetic components previously cultured) and additional packaging components (funny would have been the place knee deep in empty ADAM syringes). I could see a scene where Fontaine, when he last left FF, was carrying out a sack of petri-dishes with all the seed genetic cultures for all his Plasmids/Tonics to be used in his clandestine labs. Quality probably went downhill, possibly leading to even more/quicker instability in Atlas's ADAM users. It also might give motivation for having the nice shiny Gatherers Gardens tempting ALL the Slicers to use them (and be subjected to the Pheromone mod). :::Its amazing all these ideas/analysis we can have, possibly far from anything the original writers considered... ::: 02:11, April 29, 2015 (UTC) ::::With plenty of free time and no pressure or deadlines, the greatest of scenarios can be thought out. I'm sure that if the writers were in the same position BioShock would've been even more critically-acclaimed than it already is. ::::Unownshipper (talk) 22:29, April 29, 2015 (UTC) :::::There are also the engine limitations. The game was initially thought to be released on Xbox 360, they couldn't overload it. Deadlines were indeed an issue, as I recall from reading an article about the game's development (which also explain how the final battle was rushed). Nonetheless they had plenty concepts they never used. The writers always come up with tons of ideas to either contribute to the gameplay or flesh out the universe they introduce, and considering where they came from I don't doubt they were talented. Even if Bio Infinite has flaws, Ken Levine is a talented writer (albeit a complex one). He once wrote for System Shock 2 a few introductory chapters to explain how the world changed between the original game and its sequel (how corporate governments lost powers, how people felt about unmonitored A.I., how the Von Braun was built and for which purpose, etc...), and that was 1999. Pauolo (talk) 22:55, April 29, 2015 (UTC)